Subject: Re: Ty Mawr, Llandough, Cardiff From: Sion Buckler Direction: sent Date: Mon, 07 Sep 2026 19:55 UTC Institution: Glamorgan Archives Refs: none Archive id: gm-1a07d705f291c33b ------------------------------------------------------------ Louise, Thanks for your detailed and prompt reply and for the additional information concerning the Bute Estate records and D696. I just want to clarify one important point in relation to my original enquiry, as I think I may have caused a slight misunderstanding about the particular transaction I am trying to establish. My principal question is *not whether there are deeds between the Bute Estate and Alfred Thomas*. The key transaction I am trying to locate and verify is the *1877 transaction concerning Daniel Thomas and the Bute Estate*, which I understand from the surviving family evidence to have concerned a defined portion of Great House Farm, including the farmhouse and surrounding land. I see an 1877 agreement between both parties, for that year, but for a different property in Cardiff. I wondered if it was mis labelled and if you could validify its content, particularly any map data. So as the integrity of the descriptor of the record is assured or revisited. The issue is whether the Bute Estate *conveyed, granted or otherwise dealt with that defined parcel in favour of Daniel Thomas*, and, crucially, what the instrument and its plan actually show about the boundaries and the nature of the interest created. In 1877. This is important because the present documentary reconstruction I am preparing treats the 1877 instrument as the potential starting point for the separate House Plot chain. The working case is that the instrument dealt with the farmhouse land separately from the eastern agricultural/quarrying parcel, with provisions connected to quarrying and the subsequent passing of the house land to the occupying Williams family when quarrying ceased. That proposition is expressly being treated as a matter requiring verification against the original instrument and plan, rather than as an established fact. I therefore wonder whether the catalogue search could be reconsidered specifically on the following basis: *Bute Estate → Daniel Thomas → defined land at Llandough / Great House Farm, approximately 1876–1878* including instruments which may not themselves be catalogued under “Great House Farm” or “Daniel Thomas”, but which might appear under: - the name of the property or former field name; - the Marquess of Bute or his trustees as grantor; - Daniel Thomas as builder, quarryman, lime-burner or occupier; - a lease, conveyance, agreement, surrender or counterpart; - quarrying or mineral rights; - a plan accompanying an instrument; - or a transaction recorded in a Bute Estate rental, ledger or estate correspondence rather than in the deed catalogue. I appreciate that your catalogue may simply contain no surviving record of this transaction. If that is the position, that is useful information in itself. What I am particularly trying to establish is whether *the 1877 transaction has been positively searched for and not found*, as opposed to there being no later catalogue entry linking Daniel or Alfred Thomas to the Bute Estate. D696 and the later Western Ground Rents material Thank you also for pointing me towards D696. Please do let me know which item(s) within D696 contain the *book plans and rental books for Western Ground Rents Ltd c.1938–1944*, particularly anything relating to Great House Farm, Llandough or the land occupied by John Williams. This is potentially very relevant because the documentary issue I am investigating is whether the later WGR estate corresponded geographically with the parcel dealt with by the Bute Estate in 1877, or instead with the separate agricultural/quarrying parcel. Bute Estate finding aid I would also be grateful if you could retain my enquiry against the Bute Estate material being transferred from Cardiff Library. In particular, I would be interested in any items concerning: - Llandough / Great House Farm / Tŷ Mawr; - Daniel Thomas; - the 1870s Bute Estate conveyances or leases; - estate plans showing parcel boundaries; - quarrying or lime works; - rentals distinguishing the farm from the farmhouse/cottages; and - subsequent dealings with the relevant parcels. 1910 Land Valuation map Finally, thank you for identifying DVAL/1/33. If Glamorgan Archives has any information enabling me to identify the corresponding *1910 valuation map held by The National Archives*, I would be grateful for the relevant reference. I am trying to make a targeted request rather than simply asking The National Archives to search broadly for a Llandough map. Thank you again for your assistance. The clarification regarding what is and is not held at Glamorgan Archives is useful, and I appreciate your help in narrowing down the surviving documentary trail. Yours sincerely, *Sion Buckler (Ret'd Sergeant)* *Royal Signals Cyber/Electronic Warfare Professional and Life Member* On Mon, 7 Sept 2026, 13:46 Glamro / Swyddfa Cofnodion Morgannwg, < [email redacted]> wrote: > *Ref: 2026/3793* > > > > Dear Sion Buckler, > > > > Thank you for your email of 22nd August, received into our enquiries > system 24th August. > > > > To answer your points in turn: > > > > 1. DBDT/10/19 describes Daniel Thomas as ‘of the Town of Cardiff, > Builder’. There are no further identifying details for Daniel Thomas in > the documents. We can provide copies of the documents at a charge or they > can be accessed for free in our public searchroom. Please let us know if > you would like a quote for digital copies. > 2. There are no additional deeds described on our catalogue between > Daniel or Alfred Thomas and the Bute Estate. > 3. There are no additional records relating to quarrying in Llandough > or around Ty Mawr / Great House Farm. > 4. If you have not already got a copy of Daniel Thomas’ will, you can > apply for a copy of probate from the Probate Office: Search probate > records for documents and wills (England and Wales) - GOV.UK > . > 5. We think you have probably already covered all the material we have > on this matter but… > > 1-3) We do not hold the majority of the Bute Estate records. I attach a > finding aid to the Bute Estate records that are currently held by Cardiff > Library. These records are soon to be transferred to us so please let us > know if there is anything on this list that you are interested in. Other > records of the Bute Estate can be found at the National Library of Wales. > > 4) We are not sure if you have consulted D696 which includes a book plans > and rental books for land owned by Western Ground Rents Ltd c1938-1944. > > 6. Have you looked at historic Ordnance Survey plans to show boundaries? > Some of these can be viewed online e.g. Map Finder - with Outlines - > National Library of Scotland > . > Mary consulted the 1910 Land Valuation book for Llandough (DVAL/1/33) but > we do not have the corresponding maps to go with this – you would need to > contact the National Archives for a copy of this. > > > > We hope that this information is of use to you. Please note that we aim > to answer all emails in order but the longer more complicated ones may take > up to 15 working days to respond to. > > > > Yours sincerely, > > [map link redacted] > > > > [map link redacted] > > Louise Hunt > > [map link redacted] > > *Archifydd / Archivist* > > > > *Archifau Morgannwg / Glamorgan Archives* > > *Clos Parc Morgannwg > [map link redacted]* > > *Lecwydd / Leckwith > [map link redacted]* > > *Caerdydd / Cardiff > [map link redacted]* > > *[postcode redacted] > [map link redacted]* > > > > [phone redacted] > > *[email redacted]* <[email redacted]> > > > > *www.archifaumorgannwg.gov.uk/* > *www.glamarchives.gov.uk* > > www.facebook.com/glamarchives > > www.instagram.com/glamarchives > > > > *From:* Sion Buckler <[email redacted]> > *Sent:* 22 August 2026 19:57 > *To:* Glamro / Swyddfa Cofnodion Morgannwg <[email redacted]> > *Subject:* Ty Mawr, Llandough, Cardiff > > > > *EXTERNAL:* This email originated from outside Cardiff Council, take care > when clicking links. > *ALLANOL:* Daw'r e-bost hwn o'r tu allan i Gyngor Caerdydd, cymerwch ofal > wrth glicio ar ddolenni. > > > > Glamorgan Archives Team, > > I am writing to make a targeted archive research enquiry concerning the > DBDT collection and any related Bute, Mountjoy or Western Ground Rents > material held by Glamorgan Archives. > > I am investigating the historic title, occupation and parcel boundaries of * > Great House Farm (Tŷ Mawr), Llandough*, particularly evidence concerning > a possible historical division of the farm between land retained by the > Bute Estate and land allegedly sold or transferred to *Daniel Thomas*. > > A family witness account describes a specific arrangement under which > approximately ten acres, including the farmhouse, were allegedly sold by > the Bute Estate to Daniel Thomas, while a separate portion of approximately > nine acres remained under the Bute Estate. The account further describes > quarrying on the Thomas-held land and an agreement under which the freehold > would eventually pass to the occupying family when quarrying ceased. > > I appreciate that this account requires verification against the original > documentary record. I am therefore seeking to identify the relevant deeds, > agreements, plans and subsequent title documents. > 1. Verification of specific DBDT catalogue entries > > Please confirm the exact property description, parties and date of the > following catalogue entries, and, if possible, provide a digital copy or > scan of the opening parties clause and any attached or marginal plan: > > - *DBDT10/19* – Lease (counterpart), described in the catalogue as > concerning land and messuages in Bute Street, Cardiff, from trustees of the > late Marquess of Bute to Mr Daniel Thomas, October 1850. > - *DBDT10/20* – Agreement for a building lease of premises in Bute > Town, Cardiff, involving the same parties, June 1849. > > I understand from the catalogue descriptions that these items concern > Cardiff rather than Llandough. My purpose is to establish whether the *Daniel > Thomas named in these instruments can be identified sufficiently to > determine whether he is the same individual later connected with the > Llandough lime works and land interests*, or whether these are unrelated > transactions involving another person of the same name. > > Please also advise whether either document contains information > identifying Daniel Thomas by residence, occupation, estate, trusteeship or > other distinguishing details. > 2. Targeted search for a Bute–Daniel Thomas transaction at or near > Llandough > > Please search the catalogue descriptions and indexes available to > Glamorgan Archives for any deed, conveyance, exchange, sale, transfer, > lease, agreement, plan or related instrument involving: > > - *Daniel Thomas*; > - *Alfred Thomas*; > - the *Marquess of Bute*; > - trustees of the Marquess of Bute; > - the *Bute Estate*; > > and land at or near: > > - *Llandough*; > - *Great House Farm / Great House / Tŷ Mawr*; > - adjoining land or parcels that may subsequently have formed part of > the farm. > > I am particularly interested in transactions dating from approximately * > 1876 to 1878*, but would be grateful for references to earlier or later > documents where they form part of the same chain of title. > > In particular, I am seeking evidence capable of confirming or disproving > whether any defined parcel of land was conveyed by the Bute Estate to > Daniel Thomas. > 3. Quarrying, lime works and any conditional reversion or transfer > > Please identify any relevant records concerning land at Llandough or Great > House Farm that refer to: > > - quarrying; > - quarries or quarry land; > - lime works or lime kilns; > - mineral rights; > - removal of quarrying machinery; > - reduction or cessation of rent as land was quarried; > - termination of quarrying; > - a future conveyance, reversion, surrender or transfer of a freehold > interest when quarrying ceased. > > The particular issue I am investigating is whether an agreement existed > under which occupation or ownership of a defined parcel was intended to > change when quarrying operations came to an end. > 4. Daniel Thomas, Alfred Thomas and the Llandough lime works > > Please identify any documents linking *Daniel Thomas*, or his son *Alfred > Thomas (later Lord Pontypridd)*, with: > > - land at Llandough; > - the Llandough lime works or lime kilns; > - quarrying operations; > - Great House Farm or adjoining agricultural land; > - any freehold or leasehold interest in the area. > > I would be particularly interested in estate papers, correspondence, > conveyances, wills, probate-related estate records, rentals, rent books, > abstracts of title and plans that may trace what became of any Daniel > Thomas interest after his death or thereafter. > 5. Subsequent title and occupation > > Please identify any abstracts of title, estate maps, conveyances, > correspondence, tenancy records or other material that may assist in > establishing: > > 1. what happened to any freehold interest held by Daniel Thomas or his > estate; > 2. whether such an interest was ever conveyed, surrendered or > transferred back to the Bute Estate or another party; > 3. whether the Bute Estate later reacquired any relevant parcel; > 4. whether later parties, including *Mountjoy Ltd* or *Western Ground > Rents Ltd*, acquired title to land previously held by Daniel Thomas or > his successors; > 5. the basis on which later tenancies described as covering the > "whole" of Great House Farm were granted. > > I am also interested in any material linking these title questions with > the occupation of the farm by the *Williams family*. > 6. Plans and parcel boundaries > > A separate line of research concerns the possibility that historic legal > boundaries passed through or between different parts of the Great House > Farm complex. > > Accordingly, please identify any: > > - estate maps; > - conveyance plans; > - tenancy plans; > - quarry plans; > - large-scale plans; > - boundary plans; > - valuation plans; > > that show Great House Farm, the farmhouse, garden, stables, outbuildings > or adjoining parcels. > > I am particularly interested in documents that could establish whether > different parts of the historic building complex fell within different > legal parcels. > > I appreciate that some of these requests may require staff research beyond > a standard enquiry. My immediate priority is to obtain *the relevant > catalogue references and confirmation of what material exists*. If more > detailed searching or document retrieval is necessary, please let me know > the applicable procedure, estimated cost and whether a formal paid research > request would be required. > > If relevant documents have been digitised, I would be grateful for details > of the cost of obtaining copies. Otherwise, please advise whether they can > be consulted in person and whether any restrictions or advance ordering > requirements apply. > > Thank you for your assistance. The documents identified through this > enquiry may be important to reconstructing the historical chain of title > and occupation of Great House Farm, Llandough from the nineteenth century > onwards. > > Yours faithfully, > > *Sion Buckler (Ret'd Sergeant)* > > ********************************************************************** > > The Council welcomes correspondence in Welsh, English or bilingually. 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Rhowch wybod i'r anfonydd ar unwaith os nad ydych chi > neu eich cyflogydd yn caniatau e-bost y Rhyngrwyd am negeseuon fel hon. > Rhaid deall nad yw'r safbwyntiau, y casgliadau a'r wybodaeth arall yn y > neges hon nad ydynt yn cyfeirio at fusnes swyddogol Cyngor Dinas a Sir > Caerdydd yn cynrychioli barn y Cyngor Sir nad yn cael sel ei fendith. Caiff > unrhyw negeseuon a anfonir at, neu o'r cyfeiriad e-bost hwn eu prosesu gan > system E-bost Gorfforaethol Cyngor Sir Caerdydd a gallant gael eu > harchwilio gan rywun heblaw'r person a enwir. > > ********************************************************************** >